CLEVELAND, Ohio — In the Cavs’ move to acquire De’Andre Hunter, they had to give up two key connectors. But the Cavs did their homework on Hunter off the court as much as on the hardwood and how he could fit within their roster.

Takeaways:

• The Cavs filled their greatest positional need with De’Andre Hunter.
• Hunter’s acquisition allows the Cavs to avoid the luxury tax.
• The trade discussions for Hunter began weeks prior to the deadline.
• Cavs’ front office executed a well-planned trade strategy.
• Team chemistry was a significant factor in acquiring Hunter.
• The Cavs are focused on winning a championship, not just making the playoffs.
• Max Strus’s role may change with Hunter’s addition.
• The buyout market presents opportunities for the Cavs.
• Cavs have a strong defensive culture that Hunter can enhance.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And maybe the most anticipated podcast of the season has come to fruition. It is time for the post trade deadline discussion with Chris Fedor, J. Jimmy Watkins and myself. And of course we all are aware that the Cleveland Cavaliers went out and made their first acquisition ahead of the trade deadline in two seasons. De’Andre Hunter of the Atlanta Hawks is no longer a Hawk. He is now going to be a part of the Cleveland Cavaliers. And the Cleveland Cavaliers had to give up Caris Lavert, George Niang and a few picks. And Chris, I just want to get your initial reaction to the trade and obviously you being in the know and having some insight ahead of time. What did you think about coming into today and then after the 3:00 deadline pass?

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Speaker C : Well, we no longer have to talk about Cam Johnson, so that’s nice. No, the the Cavs were interested in a few different guys going into today’s trade deadline, but De’Andre Hunter was the one who made so much sense for them from, from a skill set standpoint and from what it was going to cost to acquire him. And I think the thing that stands out to me is that, you know, the Cavs filled what is their greatest positional need, need being a relative term. They’re the number one seed in the Eastern Conference. They’ve got 41 wins. So it’s hard to look at this roster and say, okay, they needed something. They had to do something at the trade deadline so that they could better compete with Boston, New York, maybe Milwaukee, the other teams out west. But it was a positional need for them. They needed more size, they needed more length, they needed more athleticism on the wing. We talked about their struggles against, you know, Boston, Oklahoma City, Atlanta earlier this year. When they were at full strength. There was a style of player that gave them problems. There was a style of team that gave them problems. There was a style of player that they needed on this roster and they got it in De’Andre. So not only did they fill their greatest positional need, but they ducked the luxury tax. Now they can be more of a player in the buyout market, which is something that I’m sure we’re going to talk about. And the other thing is, guys, they didn’t have to give up the 2031 first round pick. They didn’t have to give up Jalen Tyson to be able to hold on to those two, to those two things that are probably like the most valuable trade commodities that they have. That’s a big, big deal for this team. And I’m told that, you know, these conversations with Atlanta started weeks ago. The Cavs have been interested in De’Andre Hunter since 2019 when they had the fifth pick in the draft and he went fourth overall because Atlanta traded in front of them to take De’Andre. But these trade discussions between the Cavs front office and the Hawks front office, they’ve been going on for weeks. They really started in earnest last night, the night before the trade deadline when like Kobe, Altman and Landry Fields started discussing like different constructions of a deal and what the Cavs were willing to include, what they weren’t willing to include. And then basically at 8 o’clock this morning on the day of the trade deadline, the two sides revisited. And they said, all right, let’s hammer this out. Let’s see if there is a working trade out here that is going to work for you, that’s going to work for us. Here are the things that we’re willing to give. What are the things that you’re willing to take? And Kobe said from the very beginning, I’m told to Landry Fields that Jaylon Tyson is essentially off limits and the 2031 first round pick is off limits. What can we do to get this thing done without those things included and for them to be able to get this to the finish line and get a guy who is a great on court fit and off court fit, a guy that they’ve been interested in for nearly six years. Just great work by the Cavs front office being able to get this done and push it across the finish line.

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Speaker A : Yeah, it really is a nifty piece of business to get the exact player and position that you wanted without giving away really any of your your prized assets. I mean I know the Cavs internally will miss Caris LeVert and George Niang as people. George Niang is a skilled forward who can stretch the floor. Caris LeVert is a man who wore many hats when he was here in Cleveland. The perfect fill in guy for Darius and Donovan are resting when he’s healthy. Right? A good sixth man has been an improved defender and shooter this year. But I also want to say reiterate kudos to the Cavs on that. There is a reason though that, that De’Andre Hunter could be had for this price. I should say a couple of reasons I think. One, the Hawks are in tank mode. They’re have. They’re approaching this from a different mindset. They’re trying to get off money. They’re clearing the deck for Jalen Johnson when he gets back from injury. And Zachary Ricochet, the number one pick from this year, has had promising moments, had a promising moment, moment at Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse the other, the other night.

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Speaker C : Right.

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Speaker B : But it’s also.

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Speaker A : De’Andre Hunter is the perfect vision for what the Cavs want to have his box. His basketball reference page looks exactly like his. His, his measurements look exactly like what the Cavs want, but it’s kind of, you know, Heming and Ha. With De’Andre Hunter, he’s making the threes right now. He hasn’t always. I mean, two years of sustained volume is pretty good, but over his career, inconsistent shooter, the defense, the defensive profile, incredible. I mean, coming out of college, out of Virginia, I mean, people were talking about this guy could be the kind of guy that you do put on a Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum as a stopper in the NBA, right, because of the, the size and the length and all that stuff. But it didn’t totally pan out that way in Atlanta. Granted, I would, I would not describe that as a healthy defensive culture that they have over there. Your best player doesn’t play very much defense. He doesn’t face much retribution for that. I don’t know why, how that inspires anyone else to play a whole lot of defense. Cavs obviously have a much stronger version of defensive culture than the Hawks did. I’m just saying there’s a reason that this happened. Basically, though, this is a great piece for the Cavs. Now catching again. I, I wrote this today. I’ve said it on the pod. You never know when you’re going to be 4,000, 110 again. It might be 4,110 again. It might be never. It honestly might be never. So you got to go for it while you have the chance. And in the future, like, look a little like. Okay. Caris Lavert and George Nang are casualties of this deal. Isaac Okoro is playing on the qualifying offer this year. Dean Wade has heard again, in theory, Dean Wade checks similar boxes. Not the same volume as a three point shooter, but defensively, him and De’Andre Hunter, first of all could be an incredible pairing defensively this year and next. But long term, like, that’d be a great piece, great piece to play together. And if Dean Wade was healthy all the time, I don’t know if the Cavs actually make this trade. The problem is he’s never healthy. It’s always something and I feel bad for the guy because to a certain extent you can’t Help it. Some guys just have bad luck with this stuff, but this is an affordable contract for the next couple of years that I think fits into the Cavs plans several different levels. There’s a reason why they specifically targeted this guy.

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Speaker C : And to your point, Jimmy, you know, I had a source tell me that the most painful aspect of this particular trade is what they’re losing from George Niang behind the scenes. You know, he was one of their most vocal locker room guys. He was willing to call guys out to hold guys accountable, to speak up when it was tough in those moments, when those moments were needed, if they were needed. And he also had a way of keeping it fun and loose and cracking jokes and stuff like that. So they know that that’s going to be a painful aspect of it, but they believe that, you know, it was still worth it for them to make this kind of trade. Because at the end of the day, you know, we’ve talked about this so much on the podcast. We’ve written about this for cleveland.com the Cavs went at full strength before today’s trade deadline, had 11 guys in their rotation. But, like, there were legitimate questions about four or five of them and their viability in a playoff environment. Against Boston, against New York, against Milwaukee, against Orlando, by the way, who, if they get their stuff figured out, you’ve got to deal with Paulo Banchero and Franz Wagner. Too long athletic, very, very difficult to contain wings. So when you looked at the. The top 11 in this rotation, you know, Caris LeVert, there were legitimate questions about how much the Cavs could rely on him. George Niang, he was not going to play. The Cavs made a determination that he was not going to play in the Boston series if they got to the Boston series, because he just can’t match up against that caliber team. He just can’t match up against that style of opponent. And then you keep going down the list, and you’re like, Isaac Okoro, how much can we count on him? How much can we rely on him with his offensive limitations and the fact that no teams in the NBA consistently guard him? No teams in the NBA consider him a legitimate outside shooting threat. And then Dean Wade, Dean Wade hasn’t been healthy at some of the most important moments for this franchise over the last couple of years. And there’s also some mental stuff there with his confidence going up and down and up and down. So that’s four of your top 11 where you’re looking at a playoff environment and you’re saying, man, how much can we rely on these guys. How much can we count on these guys? And I think there was an uneasy feeling for the Cavs about that. So they got somebody who has 16 games of playoff experience. He’s played against the Celtics in the playoffs, he’s played well against the Celtics in the playoffs and he can guard multiple positions and you don’t have to worry about is he going to be available, is he going to be reliable for us, you have to worry about the availability because the injuries are a real thing. But is he a reliable player from an on court stylistic standpoint? Does he help us better match up against the teams that we’re probably going to have to go through in order to get to the NBA Finals? And for the Cavs, this wasn’t about getting to the playoffs. This wasn’t about getting to the second round. This is about getting to the NBA Finals and winning a championship. And sometimes that requires difficult choices. The other thing that I’ll say about Kerris for the way that he has played at the beginning of the season for a majority of the season and he was in the sixth man of the year conversation, the status quo has changed on this team from the time that the Cavs traded for Karras and from the time that the Cavs decided to re sign Kerris this offseason. They didn’t have Ty Jerome on this roster at that point. So like the things that that Kerras does best, the things that make him such an effective player, the shot creation, the playmaking, the three level scoring, the Cavs don’t need those things as much as what they need from De’Andre Hunter. So I think the emergence of Ty Jerome and the consistency and stability of Ty Jerome made it so that Kerris was a little bit more expendable beyond the fact that he’s on an expiring contract. And it was going to be hard to resign him this off season. Like his skill set, the shot creation, the playmaking, it’s not as needed for this team anymore because this version of Darius Garland is different than last year’s because this version of Ty Jerome is actually healthy and making an impact. And you know, Caris for the last month or so has struggled on the floor. He struggled to make shots, he struggled to be the kind of player that he was at the beginning of the season. So I think it just made him a little bit more, quote, unquote, expendable in this kind of deal.

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Speaker B : Chris, I want to get into the next topic and obviously we came into today understanding that this could be a three team deal between the Atlanta Hawks, the Cleveland Cavaliers and they were trying to find a third suitor. What happened in that department and why did that not become necessary with how the trade panned out?

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Speaker C : So the reason why the two sides were looking for a third team from the very beginning is because both teams were motivated to avoid the luxury tax. That’s part of the reason why Atlanta made the moves that they made today, part of the reason why De’Andre Hunter was so available. Because they want financial flexibility, they want to clear up some salary cap space, in part, I’m told, because they want to have conversations with Larry Nance Jr. About an extension. And even if it’s not that, they just want to be players in free agency and they just don’t want to be hamstrung by some of these bulky salaries that are multi year remaining on the deals. You know, De’Andre Hunter has this year and then two more years remaining for a team like Atlanta that has a glut of wings already. Like to them that was an expendable contract that if they could clear that off their books, it was going to benefit them from a team building standpoint. So both teams wanted to avoid the luxury tax if they could. That was part of the Cavs motivation for adding George Niang in the deal. And when, when they decided on what the compensation was going to be, the multiple second rounders, the pick swaps, which get kind of convoluted because there are pick swaps on top of pick swaps that are already owed to the Utah Jazz. So now like Atlanta has second dibs on that pick swap and then the Cavs would get the worst of them or whatever. But after they agreed on like the compensation from a trade asset perspective, you know, Atlanta said, well, we’re a little bit over the luxury tax. Atlanta then found the Houston Rockets to take on the salary of Cody Zeller, who I didn’t even know was on Atlanta’s roster. To be honest with you, I haven’t seen him play in years. But because Atlanta was able to find Houston and they just tossed a second round pick to the Rockets to take Cody Zeller’s contract, that was the move that Atlanta needed to make to get under the luxury tax and that made it so that the Cavs and the Hawks didn’t need to find a third team.

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Speaker B : There’s so much difficulty when we talk about the decisions that have been made and obviously chemistry comes into it. And Chris has reported on this before and we talked about this when we brought up De’Andre Hunter as a possible option for the Cavs about how he’s best friends with Ty Jerome. And obviously, if there’s a guy on the team that can vouch for the chemistry and the camaraderie, that’s also helpful. But I want to move on to the next thing.

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Speaker C : It’s not just Ty Jerome, because I think this is important, because it’s something that the Cavs heavily considered, and they did a ton of background on De’Andre Hunter, just like they did on Cam Johnson and just like they did on Marcus Smart, whose sources tell me the Cavs had on their radar as well. But they did the kind of background checking on De’Andre Hunter that they needed to do because they were worried about the fit, not necessarily the on court fit. He’s a catch and shoot threat. He can score at all three levels. He can guard probably five positions. The other night against San Antonio, he was guarding Wemby on one possession, and then he was guarding De’Aaron Fox on the next one, so he can guard one through five. So stylistically, from an on court standpoint, there weren’t questions about the fit. They knew that he was going to fit the kind of style that Kenny Atkinson wants to run. They knew that he was going to fit alongside, you know, their core four, their main guys. He can start or come off the bench. So there are no concerns about that. But. But they wanted to make sure that they weren’t going to disrupt things behind the scenes. They wanted to make sure that it was the right person that they were bringing to this organization and beyond. Ty Jerome, who vouched for. For De’Andre Hunter. Darius Garland is close with De’Andre, and they’ve been close since the 2019 NBA Draft. They were in the same draft class. De’Andre has the same agent as Evan Mobley. Donovan has a close enough relationship with De’Andre. And the Cavs reached out to a number of trusted sources, both across the NBA and with the Atlanta Hawks, one of them being Larry Nance Jr. Just to get a feel for the kind of person that. That De’Andre is. And they felt really, really good about the feedback that. That they got, not just from, you know, the people that they talked to around the NBA, but their own guys in the locker room that all said, you know, yeah, he would be a great fit. Yeah, we’d have no problem welcoming him. And the other thing is, you know, the other night following the game against Boston, I was already working on the De’Andre story about the Cavs pursuing him. And because I was doing that, I had private conversations with multiple players in the locker room, just talking to them about this possibility. And all of them said, yeah, we’ve heard those connections, too. We’re aware. And I asked them, I said, what would you think about him? And there was one player that said, he is exactly what we need. So even though, you know, there was this public conversation having about, like, hey, do we have enough? Like, hey, do we want to add something else to this team? Hey, are we willing to subtract something? I think players recognized that there was a weak point on this roster, and De’Andre was the perfect one to fill that. So many players, even before this trade happened, when the rumors were out there that the Cavs were interested in doing background checks on De’Andre, you know, multiple players that I talked to said, yes, he would be the perfect fit for us.

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Speaker A : We’ve been talking about this for a while. Like, the culture. I feel like the culture chemistry concerns were always a little bit overstated, ironically enough, sometimes overstated by these same people who feel very comfortable with De’Andre Hunter now. Because I think in the past, it was sort of more of an abstract. It could be, you know, I don’t want to just. They don’t want to just lose their guys for anybody, right? And the other thing is, you have to keep your feet in both pools, right? You have to. You can strive to improve the team, but you also have to, in the event that you don’t improve the team, you have to keep everybody that’s under your roof right now pretty happy. So it’s. It’s of no surprise to me the Cavs were doing all this, quote, hand wringing about, well, we love our chemistry and we don’t need anybody. And this, that, and the third, and we’re privately okay with getting somebody who they knew would fit the culture. But even. Even if it was player X, like, the. I mean, De’Andre Hunter is perfect for all the reasons that Chris just mentioned. But it’s also, like, once you’re 41 and 10, the culture, it kind of sets itself, right? Like, are players happy or do teams win because players are happy, or are players happy because they win? It’s a chicken and egg kind of thing. And, like, Donovan Mitchell is a culture setter. Evan Mobley is a culture setter. Evan Mobley doesn’t maybe pull us, pull guys aside and light into them or tell them to shape up the way George and Yang might have been doing. But, like, there’s a learn by example factor that happens here, and there’s not a whole lot of conversation needs to be had when you’re 41 and 10. It’s just like, do what you need to do or you won’t play. Play.

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Speaker C : I think that’s a good point, Jimmy. And I think the thing that as the Cavs were going through this, they kept going back to, okay, we don’t want to minimize what, what Keras has brought and what George has brought behind the scenes, but do we have guys that are capable of filling that same role? Just like you talk about from an on court standpoint, do we have guys that can do the things that those guys did on the floor? The answer is yes, right? The playmaking, the shot creation, that can come from Ty Jerome, who’s not going to be in jeopardy of losing minutes now that there’s less of a logjam there. And then you talk about Dean Wade doing the George Niang type things, at least from an offensive standpoint, and being a significantly better and more impactful defender. But you also say to yourself, like, do we have guys that can step into that role behind the scenes? The answer is yes. Like, Max can do the George stuff. Max can hold guys accountable. Tristan can hold guys accountable. Donovan can hold guys accountable. Like, Darius can keep it loose and lighthearted. Right? Isaac Okoro can keep it loose and lighthearted. So I think it would have been one thing if they felt like, you know, there was a dearth of available guys already in that locker room to step into those particular behind the scenes roles. But because they have guys that they trust that are already there in that locker room, ingrained in the culture of this organization, I just think they feel like they’re not going to feel those absences as much.

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Speaker B : So this team has been having a lot of difficult conversations lately, and I want to keep them going. Obviously, with the theme of De’Andre Hunter being that there’s another decision to come. When you talk about Max Strus and where his position now lies with the Cleveland Cavaliers starting lineup, the starting lineup that they’ve been using the last couple of games with Dean Wade and Isaac Okoro being out, was the projected starting lineup coming into the season. Now, De’Andre Hunter poses the question, does he start? Does he come off the bench? Jimmy, let me start with you. Should he lead the second unit alongside Ty Jerome? Is that a chemistry thing? Like, what do you think? Obviously, they played together in Virginia, so they have that kind of already known connection. But what do you think, Jimmy? Who starts?

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Speaker A : First of all, I would say that I care more about who closes in the playoffs rather than who starts in February. But I would guess that at first Max will start both to ease the quote, unquote. Shock. Shock is a big word. It’s just the only word in my mind right now, but you know what I mean, like ease the blow of newness to the team. Right. Keep things the same before you start changing things. And De’Andre Hunter’s already in the Sixth man of the year race, right. So he knows he’s used to coming off the bench. His rhythms are, are used to that sort of substitution pattern. Right. But I, I do think when it, when it comes time to, to make your, your statement of what the 20, 24, 25 Cavaliers will be, I think the important minutes, if this trade goes well, will go to De’Andre Hunter. Now obviously that’s a matchup dependent situation and I think it can be, by the way, Both Maxters and De’Andre Hunter can be starting and closing games in certain iterations. If Kenny Atkinson decides that, you know, this isn’t a too big series.

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Speaker C : Forgetting somebody in this conversation. You’re forgetting Dean Wade.

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Speaker A : Well, yeah, that’s.

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Speaker B : He has to be healthy to be in the conversation. He has to be healthy to be in the conversation.

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Speaker A : That is such a fair.

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Speaker B : Right now.

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Speaker A : I talk about right now and in the playoffs. I need to count on, I need to be able to count on you, Dean Wade.

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Speaker B : Right. And Chris, I know you’re gonna come with the statement that Dean Wade is progressing well and he’ll be back at the end of the, after the All Star break and all of these things. So yes, we will have that conversation then. But right now this conversation is twofold. As I mentioned, we’ll have that conversation another day when it becomes a three person conversation. But you had a slight look on your face when Jimmy said that Max Struus will continue to start. Is there something that you know that we don’t.

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Speaker C : He forgot about Dean Wade. Kenny Atkinson loves the fit of Dean Wade in the starting lineup. I’m sorry, he does. The numbers back him up. It has been a very effective five man lineup for this team. And the defense that the Dean brings to the table, it just, it’s different. It’s different than Max Strus and I just, it’s obviously going to be a conversation between the three of those guys. But like, I think the least likely option of the long term starter at small forward is Max. I do, because I just don’t think he has done enough during this stretch of being put into the starting lineup during the absence of Dean to make Kenny say, like if we didn’t trade for De’Andre Hunter, we’re not going back to Dean. Like, I just don’t think Max has been all that consistently effective. And Kenny has repeatedly spoken about how much he likes Max coming off the bench. So I, I think there has been an internal plan before this trade for De’Andre Hunter to go back to Dean in the starting lineup when he’s healthy, when he’s ready to go, when he doesn’t have a minute restriction. But I don’t know that it matters all that much like De’Andre Hunter. The bottom line is De’Andre Hunter is going to play probably like 28 to 36 minutes a night once you get to the playoffs, because, like, you need him. You need him against Boston, you need him against Orlando, you need him against Milwaukee, you need him against New York. The Cavs did a bunch of different studies on De’Andre Hunter and their other trade targets, and one of the things that they looked at specifically was every single possession De’Andre spent on Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown, Chris Middleton before he got traded, Giannis Franz, Paulo, Mikel Bridges, and like all those different guys that you just didn’t have enough capable guys to deal with them. So it’s going to be hard for Kenny ATKINSON to take De’Andre off the floor, especially when you get into a playoff environment. But, but I think, I think there’s a strong chance that he becomes the full time starter at small forward if, if that’s something that De’Andre thinks is best. I think there’s going to be a conversation between Kenny and De’Andre about role, about usage, about responsibilities. And if De’Andre says, hey, like, I’m more comfortable coming off the bench, then I think Kenny will try and keep him in that role. It’s a role that he has flourished in for the Hawks this year, but he has also shown throughout the course of his career that he can start. And I think having somebody who has proven to be effective in both is a really, really good asset to have. And I think part of it’s going to be determined by what De’Andre thinks is best for him and what De’Andre thinks is best for this team. And obviously what, what Kenny Atkinson feels like is needed most in the starting lineup. Do they want to create a little bit more scoring balance and bring De’Andre off the bench? I could see it.

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Speaker B : So, Chris, I want to call you out just a little bit, just because obviously situations change and that makes information that we have change. Obviously this is not referring to the De’Andre Hunter trade or acquisition, but remember back earlier in the season, we were talking about how great Dean Wade looks next to Jared Allen? And Evan Mobley. And you were so sure that Max Drew was going to come back and claim that starting lineup unit position. Obviously he’s warranted not only because of the information that you’ve gotten behind the scenes, but, but because that was the preferred lineup coming into the season before he got hurt. I just think it’s extremely interesting and for our fans to know how fluid things can be and how things can change on a dime in the NBA when it comes to how different situations, scenarios and progress, Dean Wade being the progress in this situation can change the minds. And not to say that Chris Fedor isn’t the mayor of Dean Wade island, but there was a time where Max Struce seemed like the clear favorite and now it seems like he’s at the bottom of a three man decision when it comes to this situation. With De’Andre Hunter being number two on the docket.

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Speaker C : They were always going to go back to Max because they wanted to see it, because they owed it to themselves to see it. All right, what does this version of Max Strust look like in this system with these players with Darius playing at this level and Evan playing at this level? So before the end of the season, they were always going to go at some point back to Max in the starting lineup for an extended stretch just because they wanted that information. They wanted to see it. Was it going to work? Was it not going to work? And all I’m saying is like, I don’t know if this was always looked at as a trial run, but that’s what it kind of like turned into for Max. I just don’t think he has done enough to claim that spot. I mean, he has been so inconsistent in terms of his effectiveness, in terms of his defense. Like there is no doubt that he brings a different dimension offensively with his continuous movement, with his gravity, with his cutting. He’s taking on the defensive challenge. That’s something that he has talked about wanting. It’s something that Kenny Atkinson, you know, talked about giving Max that responsibility and stuff like that. But it’s just like, has he done enough during this stretch where it’s like Kenny feels like he needs to leave him in there. And I don’t think the answer is yes, honestly.

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Speaker A : I also think Max just needs it the least, if that makes sense. I think Max is so self assured and who he is as a player. You compare that to also it’s just like the picture of I just want to win. Right. And you compare that to, like we said, Dean Wade, confidence wise, can be a little fragile. And De’Andre Hunter, who’s assimilating into a new environment. A new environment with a bunch of familiar faces. I’ll allow it. But it’s still a new environment. It’s still a situation where a lot is being thrust upon his shoulders. So I think it might be, if you’re ranking the guys that you’re counting on that you need to come through for you, it’s. I mean, you need everybody, but you really need De’Andre Hunter and Dean Wade. That is, if Dean Wade is healthy. Dean N.P. wade, I don’t know. Just workshopping that. I’ve just seen this movie three years in a row, man. Three years in a row where it’s like, Dean Wade, wow. Dean Wade advanced. Advanced stats, darling. Dean Wade, playoff difference maker. Dean Wade, the Celtics killer, as Jared Allen referred to him after the game Tuesday. Oh, Dean Wade has a knee injury. Oh, Dean Wade has a shoulder injury Wednesday and Wade coming back. I don’t know. It’s more than day to day, though. Wednesday and Wade coming back. We asked. Six weeks later, he’s getting closer. Dean Wade’s in the practice facility. Okay, this is once. This is a promising sign. Oh, Dean Wade’s in the game now. But now Dean Wade needs freaking, what, 20 games to get reheated up into Dean Wayne, I get it. Rhythm is a fickle thing. But, like, at a certain point, your job is to change that, right? Like, you need Dean Wade to be Dean Wade sooner and more often. And he need him to stay healthy. And you need him. You need him to stay healthy at timely moments. We just haven’t seen it yet. So I agree that if Dean Wade is healthy and playing like Dean Wade can play, he changes this equation entirely. And my goodness, can you imagine the defensive lineups that the Cavs can put out with Dean Wade, De’Andre Hunter, Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. I want to see it. Seems fun, seems hard to score against, but I’m just not there. I just need to see Dean Wade. I need to see him.

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Speaker C : I get it. I think it’s fair.

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Speaker B : I like that. Jimmy, you mentioned it. And we talk about lineups. Like there is a possibility where the Cavs go with the lineup. That’s Darius Garland, De’Andre Hunter, Dean Wade, Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. They go from a team that has struggled to have and put people above 6 foot 5 on the floor to having four possible at the same time. That’s a big jump for this team. But I do want to kind of counter what you’re saying. And obviously, players grow, players change Players continue to learn about themselves and their situation, but when it comes to Max Strust not needing it as much, I kind of look back to the reason he signed with the Cavs. Right? The opportunity to start, the opportunity to have starter minutes. That was a large part of the reason that he was okay with coming to a team that needed playoff experience, needed him to be in the lineup and have the kind of impact that he was capable of. So I’m not saying that Max Struz hasn’t grown. And obviously with him coming off a season where he had to sit out the first 27 games, that he’s not developed into the player that is more accustomed or okay with coming off the bench. And to your point, Jimmy, I think you’re absolutely right. Winning is the number one thing on Max Struse’s mind. So whatever role he has to be in, he’ll fit into that mold. But I don’t want to discard the fact that he came to this team wanting to be a starter, wanting to be someone that had an impact. And in the role that he might have with the Cavs, it might be significantly less than just a year ago.

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Speaker C : Yeah, I mean, the status quo has changed. That’s the way that I’d respond to that. The other thing that I would say is, you know, last year he was clear cut. Their best option to start at small forward just given like everything. Like now there’s a legitimate debate on whether he is the best option to start at small forward again. When you have Dean Wade playing at the level that he has played at when healthy, making the kind of impact that he has made when healthy, doing a lot of things that have contributed to winning when healthy. And now you have De’Andre Hunter, you know, his starting caliber wing. He would start on a lot of teams in the NBA. Now it becomes a legitimate debate. Last year the competition was Caris Levert, not a small forward. Isaac Kokoro. No, Dean Wade wasn’t like healthy for a majority of the second half of the season.

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Speaker A : That never happens. That’s so weird. He wasn’t healthy. Crazy.

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Speaker C : And he wasn’t playing at this level as consistently, I would say, as what he has this year. So it just, it just became like really, really easy to continue to go with Max. And Max was playing well too. So like now I think it’s a legitimate debate on like who is the best option to start at small forward. And Max is in that conversation. He has to be in that conversation. I think it’s a three person conversation. I think It’s a really good place for this organization to be, especially after the addition of De’Andre. It just, it gives. At the very least, it gives Kenny more lineup flexibility and the options that he can go to. He probably feels a lot better about what he’s going to get from those guys and the kinds of lineups. Kenny’s talked about this throughout the course of the season. Got to play different styles, got to use different defenses. You know, when you have somebody like De’Andre and then Dean and even Max to a degree, like you’re able to play those different styles, you’re able to use different kinds of lineups and in looks and stuff like that.

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Speaker A : A good way to think about this trade is we went very quickly from the CAVs having maybe 0.5 legitimate answers at the league’s most important position to. Well, now we’ve got a real problem on our hands, right? Funny how. Funny how things change so quickly real quick. On the Max thing, I just. What did we just say about De’Andre Hunter? Whether you’re playing, whether you’re starting or not? 25 to 30 minutes is 25 to 30 minutes. I think it’s more important that he plays those minutes and certainly more he would love to close. We’ll see about that as well. I just think that the minutes are the minutes and Max will get plenty of opportunities to do what he came here to do. And as long as the Cavs make a deep playoff run, he’ll be a good soldier.

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Speaker B : I agree. I think that’s a good point. And like we said for Max Struus and I think for everybody on this team at this point, winning is everything. Winning is the only thing on their mind and to do that they have to have a full roster because the NBA won’t allow it any other way. And obviously we are talking about the De’Andre Hunter trade and it was a two for one deal. Cavs sent two players, they got one back. They were already at the league minimum of 14 players. Now they’re below it at 13. The NBA allows teams to be at 12 or 13 for two weeks. That’s it. By that time they have to have made a deal to either bring another roster position player onto the team, whether that’s buyout market, whether that’s a two way option, elevating someone from a two way to a NBA standard contract or simply bringing someone from a G league roster or the Cavs G league charge up to the Cavs on an NBA standard contract as well. Chris, what have you been hearing about the options for the Cavs to fulfill their obligation of having at least 14 players. And obviously with them being under the luxury tax now, does that open up the opportunity for them to bring two players on and see how that could significantly help them in their run and their depth, which was so strong for them throughout the season, season as they make a playoff run?

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Speaker C : Because I think it depends on the player that they’re targeting in the buyout market and what that guy is going to command. So, you know, every team around the NBA, including the Cavs, they create this list based on conversations that they have with various people. They create this list of who they anticipate is is going to get bought out. One of the problem for the Cavs is like a couple guys that they had their eye on as potential buyout candidates either got traded or their situation changed. Lonzo Ball from Chicago was one of them. He got a contract extension from the Bulls, so forget him. Bruce Brown was another one. He got traded to Washington and apparently Washington’s not going to buy him out. Malcolm Brogdon not getting a buyout. Maybe PJ Soccer does. Don’t know. He changed teams multiple times during the trade deadline. Maybe the team wants to hang on to him and keep him as a veteran presence. It’s just like when you have these guys changing destinations, it becomes a little bit more difficult to predict what the new team is going to do with them, how that new team is going to view them. So you know a couple of the options that they were planning to look at in the buyout market, their status might have changed. So that’s one thing to consider in saying that. This is an important point here. They are about 1.5 million away from the luxury tax. That is a pretty comfortable buffer based on where we are in the season. A minimum salary for a player is right around 750,000. So yes, the Cavs, if they want to, can sign two guys and still be comfortable enough avoiding the tax because they’re 1.5 away. The other thing is this, like most buyout guys, they just have a base salary and they usually sign for the veterans minimum. If there’s somebody out there that is going to have a pretty strong market and he’s going to debate multiple different contending teams. You know, the Cavs have a little bit of a trump card here. They can offer more money. They can offer all 1.5 if they want to. And not every team is equipped to offer that kind of salary. Now you might say that’s not a big deal. Money’s money. Status is status and if you sign a veterans minimum contract, that’s a little bit different. It really is. So I think it depends, like, is it Ben Simmons? If it’s Ben Simmons, there are probably going to be multiple teams interested. And you can say all these things about Ben and behind the scenes and is that the kind of guy that you want to bring to the locker room? Totally fair. But if we’re talking about Ben Simmons, the player on the buyout market, like, that’s the guy who’s going to have multiple suitors, you would think. So maybe it requires the Cavs giving him a little bit of a boost in a pay to break the tie from the Los Angeles Clippers or another team that may be interested in Ben. You know, Tory Craig was somebody that they were going to have their eye on. He’s on his way to Boston. So I think part of this depends on who’s going to hit the buyout market. The other thing that they have to consider is, you know, is there a specific position that we’re going to look for or are we just going to go on a sheer talent grab? Because, like, you could make an argument that they need another big, get a little more depth. They just traded George Niang depth insurance, somebody like that. Or you can just say who’s the best pure player that’s going to hit the buyout market. Let’s just go at that guy and feel like we have a legitimate chance because one, we’re viewed as a legitimate title contender and two, we’ve got a little bit more money to play with here because we’re 1.5 million away from the luxury tax as opposed to the 750,000 or whatever they were before the deadline.

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Speaker A : I was so sad to see Lonzo get that extension. I mean, good for him. He deserves that. His knees have not cooperated with him, but, man, he would be perfect for this team. You want to talk about connectors? Lonzo Ball is the ultimate connector. He has somehow come around turn that janky jump shot into something that works. And they. I mean, like, I’m just visioning, envisioning Lonzo Ball, you know, back maybe the fourth guard minutes, playing solid defense, grabbing rebounds and the hit ahead passes, the. The pace increaser that he can be for the Cavs. All the running, running in the playoffs, you get so few opportunities to push, right? His hit ahead passing would be such an asset when the Cavs are trying to run off misses. That’s been like super in the weeds basketball talk, but he is incredible at that stuff.

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Speaker B : He.

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Speaker A : He just Thinks, thinks the game completely differently and at a very high level. That would have been tough. The, the Ben Simmons thing, I just don’t understand that. I like, I think in a vacuum, Ben Simmons is still a very talented player who on the buyout market like totally worth a flyer in a vacuum. But like for this specific team, the stated goal is to always have one of the two elite rim protectors on the court. Right. So if that’s the case, then you have the most non shooting player in the history of basketball outside of I’ll, I’ll say from November to May because we know from June to August, Ben Simmons has never missed a jump shot at the LA Fitness Open runs on Instagram. Never in his life. But when playing actual NBA basketball, not much of a shooter. Needs the ball in his hands really to be effective.

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Speaker C : Right.

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Speaker A : He’s a very good passer, Very good passer and a strong defender. I see it, I see the appeal. Good rebounder maybe even you could argue has some, a little of that Lonzo ball connector energy in him. He just can’t shoot. And you have two other guys who need to play a lot of minutes who also are, I mean, Evan Mobley, I guess if you really, really, really believe in the Evan Mobley jump shot in the playoffs, that’s, that’s the counterpoint also. Jimmy, shut up. We’re Talking about the 14th player on the roster. That’s right. That’s right. I’m stating my own case against me. But, but like is Ben Simmons legitimate question. Is Ben Simmons willing to just sit on the bench in the playoffs? I don’t know. I think he would look at the Cavs 1.5 million and say the Clippers have legitimately 20 minutes per game for me over here. I might go to them. I just think that that’s, I’ve seen them connected to him in the buyout market a ton of times. I really don’t understand it. You have two bigs on the court who will always be there and that’s hard for spacing. You also have two guys who have the ball a lot in their hands, who need the ball a lot in their hands and who have just sort of are just now hitting their stride together, sharing that workload. Why throw this other, this other obstacle in their way?

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Speaker C : It’s just an in case thing. Like anybody that they bring in on the bio market is just in case. Or if you remember a number of years ago, Dante Jones getting in at the end of the first half in one game against the Golden State warriors and doing something positive for that one minute stretch or whatever. Can you get that from Ben Simmons, right? Can you get that from Chris Boucher or something like that if he gets bought out? Can you get that from Daniel Tice if you know, like again like these guys are not going to be needle movers. These guys aren’t going to be consistent minute players. These guys are not going to be fixtures of the rotation. It’s just I think who’s the most playable guy that we could bring here that if an injury happens, if fall trouble happens, if the situation presents itself, we can at least go to you the way that we did to Danny Green a couple years ago or Marcus Morris Sr. Or like I said, you know, Dante Jones and I’ll end the.

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Speaker B : Podcast here because this is my take on the situation because Chris and Jimmy, you both mentioned it like this is a player that likely won’t see the court like we’ve talked about on this podcast at length. The rotations are going to only shrink when the playoffs come. Doesn’t matter if Kenny Atkinson continues to say 10, 11, 12 guys are going to see the floor in the regular season. As Jimmy says, Kumbaya Kenny. Like this is a team that if they didn’t have enough coming into the year, they have enough now. And it the biggest portion of that and what this Cavs organization has been known for is rewarding guys that have stuck through this tough times and stuck through hardship and just giving them a reason to can you continue trying to live out their dream or whatever. And for me, the sleeper pick is Naquan Tomlin, the guy from the Cleveland Cavalry, the Cleveland Charge. He’s 6 foot 10. He’s a guy that could necessarily be a backup big if you talk about not wanting to go to Tristan T. Thompson in that kind of situation, if you want a guy that can fly above the rim, energy piece, all these other things, I think if the Cavs were able to go that route and were thinking of rewarding someone, he would be the guy that had would be on my mind to be on that docket. But we’ll have to wait and see if they decide to go to the buyout market, get someone that could potentially play as the 14th roster player on the Cavs this year. Or we see if the Cavs go and get somebody else that they feel like could just make more of an impact. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But but remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can submit your questions for the next hey, Chris Epps. Also, if you noticed on the cleveland.com site, I posted a post that had multiple different responses from today’s reactions of our subscribers that you could be a part of next time if you sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com cav and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we we can tell you that the people who signed up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through Subtext. Y’all be safe. We out.